25 years later…

The opinion that in Armenia the talks about the development of civil society is not groundless. The thing is that the majority of the population is willing to abandon the country. Having had such an intention in mind people wouldn’t invest their time and energy in an attempt positively change anything in the country. There is also a different opinion, according to which the civil society is in the phase of formation. The evidence of that is the environmentalist protest – the movement of Mashtots park. There is also the third opinion, according to which civil society exists, however, it rides in the direction of self-destruction and that in this area as well unwritten rules are enforced just like in government – lack of trust and ambitions of leadership. The former and first Ombudsman of Armenia Larisa Alaverdyan and a member of Sardarapat movement Tigran Khzmalyan had the chance to personally listen to such accusations to their address.

Do you participate in all civil riots as a rule? Do you think civil society is being formed?

L.A. First, the allegations that civil society is only now being developed and that it started from Mashtots park make me get surprised. The movement of Mashtots park was wonderful but we should understand that we had needed prerequisites for that to happen. The birth of civil society became perceptible in 1988.

-Is civil society unique because it unites free people and doesn’t have leaders?

T.K.: We see the roots of civil society both in 1965 and 1988. . The movement is a non-stop process. There are always people out there that take the whole responsibility on themselves. The most important thing is that our society with all of its flaws is radically healthy. The important thing is that we recognize our disease and wish to cure that. It means that there is still hope out there. The ones that fight in Mashtots park, in this case the young people, refused to have a leader. They realized that each of them is a leader. This is what’s unique and important. There is generation change in the world every 24-25 years and these people are called the offsprings of independence. Unfortunately, it is not very right because they should be called offsprings of freedom.

– Don’t you think that there is a certain stereotype in its formation and that every 24-25 years the new generation starts a movement. It means that we automatically delay the next movement for another 25 years.

T.K.: If this movement fails, as it happened in 1988, we will have to wait 25 years. Unfortunately, the 1988 movement failed in 1994. We won the war and each of us went ahead on his/her own, which was a fatal mistake.

L.A.: In 1988 there were two objectives – first liberate Artsakh from the claws of Azerbaijan and secondly we were supposed to establish a social, democratic and sovereign state. We fully trusted our leaders and failed this purpose. Otherwise, we would now have a completely different Armenia. But we on the contrary transitioned into a politically unknown system, which is neither feudalism, nor slavery, nor democracy.

T.K.: We were not able to create a mechanism of monitoring, demanding and political accountability. We trusted but we were cheated and this is our fault. This generation is not going to trust anybody else. Each of us accepts equal responsibility. It is ridiculous when these young men are accused on being funded by the government or foreign grants. The biggest grant taker is the government because it increased our foreign debt from 0 to 4-5 billion USD, which means that each newly born already owes several thousand dollars.

L.A.: It is insulting when this movement is being blamed of being funded from outside. We should get rid of “spy-mania.”

-But the so-called “spy-mania” is not characteristic only to the government. We have witnessed the scenario during the protest actions in memory of Vahe Avetyan.

T.K.: It is extremely unserious to spam about such things in light of this tragedy. The people, who have accepted this heavy and ungrateful burden to babble unserious stuff, have unmasked themselves. The protest participants have differing political views but they unite for the sake of justice.

L.A.: Such things are always possible. Any movement and initiative can be criticized, any positive idea can be slammed. But this was a predictable challenge. We all have the highest status of being an Armenian citizen. This is my country and I will always be where there is a demand of civil justice.

-Do the participants express any opinions about those prominent people, who don’t join the fight for the sake of justice? Do they label them as “cowards” or “slaves?”

T.K.: Let’s not waste our valuable time on commenting on silly things. Today we are witnessing the birth of new elite. The illegitimate government has failed all its plans and initiatives. They are not able to lead the country in the right direction. During the past 20 years our country has regressed. After 20 years a country, which had won the war and had a population of four million, has turned into two million and the problems are so evident that any housewife can see them. This movement is not even a political struggle; it is a self-defense. The society has taken the responsibility of protecting the country and its people. Perhaps this sounds pathetic.

-Yes, to a certain extent, it sounds pathetic. You ascribe a bigger role to the society than it’s actually ready for. The evidence of that is the last parliamentary race. And the post election protest was not impressive either – only 200-300 people. Are you sure that the society will be able to implement the above mentioned mission with the help of only 200-300 people?

T.K.: These 200-400 people are MPs and that is the actual NA. In any group there are people, who create an environment, who take on the role of leaders.

L.A.: We all know that big changes are brought by small groups. Of course, it is a challenge as to how strong this force is and whether they are not going to hide soon. This is a revival and the moment when we cannot turn our backs to because we will remain in the swaps for good. We all complain, even the government representatives, but when the time comes to get engaged in an action, we all step back and recede. Let’s not forget that the development of a democratic and social state failed for years. I hope this is a lively and vibrant movement, which included not only the new generation but also the old generation, which agreed with the need of fight for the sake of justice. Perhaps at this point their number is not impressive but we have a high quality in that movement.

T.K.: You have adverted to the parliamentary elections, but believe me, we haven’t had an actual alternative for years now. And we don’t even have the right to believe in the actual numbers. Pay attention that this outrage, which drove us out on the streets after Vahe Avetyan’s death, didn’t happen because of social discontent even though according to official stats the poverty level is very high and people go to bed hungry. This is not what rose the people. This was a matter of dignity. People were made because of immoral people and their actions. Our value system is endangered and people respond to that. It is not fair to blame the people for selling their ballots at 5000 drams. They agree to that because they don’t have an alternative.

L.A.: Even the falsified elections show that the government is losing its rigged ballots year by year. The false opposition party collected 1/3 of votes, which shows that the government is receiving fewer ballots.  We have been seeing fake opposition for many years now. This technology hasn’t faded out yet. While in government, and having the same value system, it might still be possible to change the society. The civil society realizes this and is capable of doing so.

– As past civil movements you have mentioned 1965, 1988. The movement of 1988 was led not by one leader but a group of people – Karabakh committee. There was no leader but over time the leader was also naturally created. And the movement proceeded not the way we anticipated and expected.

T.K.: We get on our feet when the threat is so close to us. Now is the time and we feel the threat hanging above the nation’s head. Moreover, this threat is internal nor external.

L.A.: We shouldn’t think that we are facing an undefeated system. This is a weak system lacking a serious value system. These people are there because of materials needs. This is not a good stratum and the good stratum is the one that relies on values. Today everybody knows that we need to get rid of this destructive and rotten system as soon as possible.